Ducks in a row

Jeremy Hunt, after a disastrous day in the House of Commons where he made a statement on the Keogh mortality report which bore little relation to the contents of that report, as Secretary of State for Health for England currently met up with Eddie Mair last night on Radio 4 on the ‘PM programme’. You can listen to his interview here (from 40 minutes).

Jeremy Hunt has a problem in denying that political lobbying has not had an effect in his policy over cigarette smoking. There have previously been allegations that Jeremy Hunt had 799 text messages with Rupert Murdoch’s lobbyist, and this was indeed a core focus of investigation in the infamous Leveson Inquiry on press regulation. The issue here is that Jeremy Hunt does not fundamentally disagree with the statement that, “There is limited evidence from Australia as to the effect of standardised packaging, so far, largely due to the short period of time since its introduction“. Eddie Mair had found that the views of the Department of Health bore an uncanny resemblance after their meeting with Philip Morris, a meeting which would have been considered unimagineable under Andrew Lansley, Mair proposes.

Jeremy Hunt was furthermore adamant that it is not a question about the “harm” which would occur if standard packaging were not introduced: Hunt was at pains to state the issue was whether it would “work”. This also has an uncanny resemblance to the briefing note of Philip Morris (New Zealand) on standardised cigarette packaging.

The question about Lynton Crosby is clearly relevant still, and is of concern even to Conservative MPs, especially Dr Sarah Wollaston (@drwollastonmp).

Eddie Mair: Turning to something which has killed far more people than all the failing hospitals put together. Tobacco, and I want to ask you about this… Do you agree that “cigarette smoking is the greatest single cause of illness and premature death in the UK”?

Jeremy Hunt: Yes I do.

Eddie Mair: Do you find much to disagree with in these words? Quote: “There is limited evidence from Australia as to the effect of standardised packaging, so far, largely due to the short period of time since its introduction“.

Jeremy Hunt: Yes.

Eddie Mair: You find.. You don’t find much to disagree with this statement?

Jeremy Hunt: Correct.

Eddie Mair: They are the words – direct quotes – of Philip Morris International at a meeting the company had with your officials [in the Department of Health] in January. We only know about this from a freedom of information request, of course. A few months later, your department is using very similar words to defend its decision to wait for further findings from Australia? Is there anything funny going on?

Jeremy Hunt: Not at all, and – I think – if I may say, it’s totally wrong for you to say that we’re taking ‘Philip Morris’ line’ because we’re not. We are..

Eddie Mair: You agree with it completely?

Jeremy Hunt: No – what I’ve said is .. I agree with that particular sentence, taken out of context. And by the way, I was not at that meeting. I don’t know what was said at that meeting?

Eddie Mair: Was Lynton Crosby at that meeting?

Jeremy Hunt: No, he was not – and I’ve never asked before you ask me, I can just tell you,

Eddie Mair: Please do not anticipate my questions. Will you stick to the ones I asked?

Jeremy Hunt: I’m happy to answer any questions you ask, Eddie. Let me say this. I am committed to doing what it takes to reduce the number taking up smoking. It is our number 1 killer, as you rightly said. However – and you need to let me answer – the reason we decided to wait for the evidence to come out of Australia is because these decisions are so legally fraught. If you don’t have the right evidence base, there’s a danger they can be overturned. There is a legal case going on in Australia at the moment. This is the Government which banned the display of tobacco behind counters. We’re absolutely committed to this agenda. We decided for such an important decision. We’re very committed to this agenda, but we need absolutely to “get our ducks in a row”. We want it to stick.

Eddie Mair: Why was Philip Morris in the room at all? Under your previous predecessor, Andrew Lansley, this would never happened. Or at least he said: “We won’t be engaging with tobacco companies on this. There is no common ground.” There’s no two ways about it – smoking kills and we have to do something about it. What was Philip Morris doing in the room at all?

Jeremy Hunt: I agree with Andrew Lansley. The advice from the Civil Service was fair, we did have to engage with all parties – doing something with the Department of Health, and for Ministers to authorise. To make the consultation process far, we had to engage with all parties. Their advice was if we didn’t engage was that any decision to introduce standardised packaging would be legally vulnerable, and that’s something neither you nor I want.

Eddie Mair: Does it help to get a meeting with your officials if the Conservative Party employed the person employed by a lobbying firm as you have done since last November?

Jeremy Hunt: Absolutely not and there’s no connection whatsoever.

Eddie Mair:

Jeremy Hunt: Well I can tell you he has never communicated with me, and I don’t know exactly whom he has communicated with outside me as I don’t know every single person he’s spoken to.

Eddie Mair: Will you check for us?

Jeremy Hunt: He has not been to any meeting in this department.

Eddie Mair: What harm do you think would be done by introducing standardising packaging without waiting for information from Australia?

Jeremy Hunt: It’s not a question about what harm would be introduced. It’s a question about whether it would work about reducing the number of people who take up smoking. That’s what you’re looking for evidence for. Given that there was a country that introduced this in January, we may not have to wait terrible long before seeing whether these measures work. It was on that business of waiting and seeing what the impact is that we decided that that was the sensible and prudent decision to make.

Eddie Mair: Why not say to the tobacco companies – we’re going ahead, we’re being bold, we’ll see if we’re wrong, and if so we can take us to court?

Jeremy Hunt: And if we took them in court and we lost, you’d be the first to invite me onto the show to say, “why didn’t you get your ducks in a row?”

Eddie Mair: You’re anticipating my questions again. This is lovely. Do you do lottery numbers as well?

[laughter]

Jeremy Hunt: No I don’t.

Eddie Mair: I want to ask you about one final thing. The Shadow Minister Lord Hunt has said he will try to force the Government to make an amendment.

Jeremy Hunt: He’s welcome to use any amendments he wants as a member of the Opposition. It’s his prerogative to use whatever parliamentary procedure he wishes. What I will say is this. The decision has not been made. We’ll be in a position to know whether it works. We’ve got a country next door which is piloting this. We won’t need to have any of these discussions, as I hope it’s clear to you, that if the evidence is strong, I will support the measure.

Eddie Mair: Jeremy Hunt, thank you.